And I remember you saying once that you had gotten a manual, I think it was from the ECFA, and boy, we could talk about them. it is. But it just has not really looked like true repentance in so many ways. Pete reminds us that our goal is not to win arguments, but to win people. And my understanding was the elder board set some boundaries for Clinton to be able to come and speak. Petes leadership at Bent Tree casts a long shadow with a legacy that will endure. We bought the routine and its shocking. Basically, theyre a rubber stamp., Julie, I have a different take on what happened at WCC. And if youd like to find me online, just go to JulieRoys.com. We were fighting asymmetric warfare, right? And that that was something that taught you an awful lot about how elder board should deal with sexual impropriety or sexual abuse within their own walls. That night we had a guest speaker come in for a special presentation. I had no idea what to expect as this lone man stood on the stage. At the end of the day the aftermath of destruction is felt on so many levels by so many people and we all react differently in our humanness. And I could explain why I think thats funny, but you have to have extreme accountability, the larger your platform gets. Thats what he was. With distinctly different teaching styles, you'll be moved by the emotional appeal of Jill and the compelling logic of Stuart, as they boldly proclaim God's sovereignty, grace, and love. Really what it is, Julie, if we want to get down to it and go to spiritual or biblical terms, these are these are works of the flesh when were not led by the Spirit. I mean, you dont need to be trying to fit a round peg into a square hole, because it is gonna manifest itself in bad ways. Stuart and Jill Briscoe have always had a passion for teaching God's Word and speaking Truth into people's hearts and moving them toward God. But then its my understanding too, that when these women met with the elders, the level of bullying and abuse that they were subjected to, was such that I know Vonda told me there were elders in tears at the end of this, of how pervasive the abuse was, I dont know how specific you can be but can you give people an idea of, of what actually happened to these women that were abused? And it turns out there were a lot more women who had been affected by Bill Hybels. Jill and Stuart came to the States from England. I wasnt throughout the representation. It manifested even at the IT level at the church. But you lose the guarding mechanism, which I think in todays in todays cultural moment, its probably the most important aspect of eldering. Toward that end, the site requires that people use their full name when commenting. And if you think its not, you know, go and look in your church building right now, if youre quarantined under COVID, or youre not gathering. And he came back and said, I cant do this anymore.. What makes you stick with that model and believe it can still be used despite how badly that model has been abused? Amen. What is it that causes so many people who know better, to look the other way and allow evil to prosper? I was just following following lawyers advice. So its okay. Jesus said, I call you My friend. Heres my belief, Julie, I think the church at large, the big leaders in evangelicalism, we can name names if we want to, and Im sure that people have names on their mind when theyre hearing this, Why were they silent? You feel that they have to have more of a governance more of a hands on role than a lot of them do. Later Telling the Truth began airing in several countries in southeast Asia and across 10 countries in southern Africa. It is what manifests. Im good friends with Vonda Dyer, who worked at Willow and was one of the women who bravely came forward with her story about her interactions with Bill Hybels. Let the Briscoes help you experience Life in all its fullness! So, while I have strong feelings about this, as you can imagine being a lawyer, but at all points, legal advice has to be subservient to Scripture. Please note, our website requires JavaScript to be supported. Can I talk about Scot McKnight for a second? Board members selected in such a way are unlikely to honor their fiduciary duty ahead of their desire to please the board chairman or senior pastor. Pete Briscoes father, Stuart Briscoe, who I loved dearly, hes not in good health, I wish he was, I wish he could hear this and Id wish him well. And he offers keen insights that are desperately needed as many churches today struggle to be healthy and to avoid the mistakes other megachurches have made. Now, I coach pastors and business leaders in communications and self-care. The radio program began to attract listeners and supporters, enabling the ministry to expand its broadcasting to a growing number of stations throughout the United States and abroad. And a lot of us who sat in the congregation and received from them were, you know, duped and we bought it. But its an analog. God showed him through that sermon how his trip was actually isolating and began a process of transformation. It was a huge fixture in evangelicalism. Talk to me about how you saw this playing out at Willow Creek. To me, Bill did not come across as a predator, flirty or suggestive with women. So Im guessing youre not against lawyers being on board. I appreciate your taking time again away from your vacation to spend time with us. Pete Briscoe, our pastor at our church came out in support of the Dyers, which was bold, and it was brave. Its one of the beauties and the deformities of social media is social media is agile. I think, as believers, we should be standing for truth, we should not look the other way. What I do, you know, and what Ministry Watch is doing and what all these independent bloggers are doing, that its bringing accountability. Yeah, that is super dangerous. He was running and we were praying that he would surrender fully to God. And Im good friends with her husband Scott Dyer as well. But you have seen the the worst of it. This was an excellent interview and elders need to read this interview. I dont know the answer but rampant clergy abuse just took my discontentment to a whole new level. And its like, now someone inside the tribe has said, Something is wrong here and it must be dealt with. And it took someone of Scot McKnights gravitas to be able to shift the discussion at Willow. We were talking a little bit about the elder board. In context, I think my meaning becomes clear as I say soon after, agreeing with Mitchs assessment that unanimity is bad: Absolutely horrible. So a young person in our high school ministry. Yeah. Posted by Jonathan Deatherage on Apr 02, 2019. Briscoe stepped down as senior pastor at the end of 2000 but remained involved in the church and active in overseas missions. Gifted with wisdom, discernment, and a bit of English humor, the Briscoe's bring God's Word to life. Yeah, without using any names. WebSince that time he has ministered on every continent, written more than 40 books, pastored a church for 30 years, and founded a media ministry called Telling the Truth which now broadcasts daily worldwide. At one point, the elder board at Willow became what people call a policy governance board. Heres to better days and better church health. Yeah, were all saints who sometimes sin. Then, I did what all good Christian college students did at that time I acquired a boot-leg copy of the drama and listened to it several times on my own. If you have six members of the Board of eight, lets just say its eight or 10. You have to have unity among your vocational staff at the church about, you know, key issues like how do we treat other people? This is just the way things are in Corinth. But I have to say that in the middle of dealing with a lot of tall weeds and bugs, God has also given me some flowers and fruit trees to enjoy. I hope you have a great day and God bless. That is a very fair question. Jill At the same time. Because we represent their interests. My husband and I actually bought our last car from our court and we had a great experience. And really, I came back to the Lord at Willow and He used that church to help me reestablish my relationship with Him and with His church. Its How do we protect the entity and the entity as expressed through the person of Bill Hybels? Once you make that decision that youre willing to protect the entity or the person in charge of the entity to the detriment of members of the body or members of the staff, youve made some poor choices that are going to have consequences. The small tape recording process drew the attention of many people who were eager for a copy of the teaching they heard at church to share with friends and neighbors. I appreciate you so much and look forward to visiting with you again soon. And you you actually refer to it as multi-level marketing. The fact that, I dont know. For more information just go to JudsonU.edu. I came out of Wheaton College, as I know a lot of kids do when youre in a Christian environment and maybe see some disillusioning things and I just, it was really a hard spiritual time for me. Id like to share a few things as we navigate this loss together. Briscoe says that he wants Bent Tree to be a place where people can agree to disagree over this issue. Hes a complex character. Senior pastors dont need advocates. And this is one of the I think exciting things. that keeps the honest person honest. They know there would be swift and sure discipline, if not firing, even with one mistakedepending on the severity of the misbehavior. I do. Subscribe Sign up for my daily email devotionals and to stay in touch! Its biblical. It is simply to feed ourselves. Powerful ministry at some points. 1 talking about this. and Im going to butcher the title. One of those women is Vonda Dyer. But this is the beauty of I think whats arisen is an independent media. But you had said you had gotten this manual and it was about, you know, basically how to be an elder and how to lead. In fact, I know some of them. I think it took courage. Gifted with wisdom, discernment, and a bit of English humor, the Briscoe's bring God's Word to life. Yes, in the course of representing these women, it became obvious that this was not what Ill call an echelon or tier leadership problem, just at Bill Hybels level. So, and youre the chairman of your board. About Stuart and Jill Briscoe For the next 90 minutes, Pete Briscoe enraptured us with his presentation of The Bema. I was blown away. Its a serious analog for what happened at Willow. Do we have a theology of goodness at our church? And I still havent been able to get her to visit with me. So there were more than 10 women that came forward and said that there was sexual misconduct by Bill Hybels. Think about the psychology of someone who could be doing what was alleged by Pat Baranowski to have been done to her. So Mitch has a very unique perspective. Yes, probably a number of your listeners are aware of the situation where the Ortbergs and Mellados had tried to report to the board an alleged long term affair that Bill Hybels was engaged in and the church hired an outside investigator to investigate the situation. Put a skin tag on it or a flesh tag. and I found these people in those imperfect churches! Bill Hybels and Bill Clinton, you know, developed a friendship over the years that at least what Ive discovered in my research, there was an invitation for Clinton to come and speak at the Global Leadership Summit, and a confrontation with the elder board about that because Clinton was on the heels of an adultery scandal. WebLearn More About Pete Today - Pete Briscoe God loves you to distraction, There is nothing you can do to make Him love them more or less, And, that Life with this Lover God is rich beyond description, regardless of your performance. And I was sitting in my office one day and Vonda picked up the phone and gave me a call and kind of told me what was coming down the pike in terms of the Chicago Tribune article that basically lit the fuse on that entire situation at Willow. I think its Pat Baranowskis story that ran in the New York Times that actually caused that. Thats a rhetorical question. Explain that. Now, I coach pastors and business leaders in communications and self-care. You formed a nonprofit corporation. After a failed attempt to travel alone in his truck out west, he came to church with us that very day. So, Mitch, how is it that a lawyer from Texas ended up representing victims of sexual harassment at a mega church in Chicago? I think there was a culture of pride at Willow that basically said, We are the elite of the Christian world. A man who "dedicated his life to sharing Gods Word with the world" has died at the age of 91. The Elder Board has accepted Petes decision, and his resignation is effective March 31, 2019. Theyre involved in their own issue right now. Growing up in a ministry family, Pete watched and learned from his parents and witnessed the reach and power of Telling the Truth's media outreach. At that age, I had never had someone in spiritual authority lie or manipulate me. As I look back on my own four years on staff, Im thankful for the teaching and leadership that Pete Briscoe has brought to Bent Tree, and I know that so many of us have been impacted by his attention to the Lord and quick obedience to however God leads him. Mitch is an attorney, a church elder and an advocate for abuse victims. Like if you go back and you actually read his books line-on-line, there are some things in there in those books where you go, For a pastor, that should be unacceptable. But he was attenuating his church culture and culture at large to him in his behavior. So Scot, its like the scene in The Avengers when Iron Man just kind of drops out of the sky. It was everything from Vonda Dyers situation of being asked to come up to Bills room and talk leadership and a forced kiss, you know, a grab around the waist. Yep, thats rooted in pride. We are egalitarian and sophisticated, and we are Gods chosen church to show how ministry is supposed to be done. Its all a Business and Power tool and stage for Virtue Signaling. I was blown away. I just, Im amazed that they were in such geographic proximity to one another dealing with almost the exact same problem. WebPete Briscoe, Stuart and Jills youngest son, was a key contributor to the ministrys teaching team from 2003 to 2021. Continue Reading The Upper Room: John 15 Posted by Nate Murray Now, I coach pastors and business leaders in communications and self-care. Yeah, my understanding of that of the history has come from interviewing witnesses, talking to people who have served in those roles and hearing their stories at Willow. I was the senior pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship for nearly 30 years. How do we deal with claims of sexual abuse? And it had all of these allies not just in the media, but among the angelical industrial complex, other megachurch pastors, everything. And I feel that way with these pastors. This person or these people were hurt as a result, you have a pride problem. WebPete Briscoe is a podcaster and evangelical pastor. I think ultimately, we are still kind of under the inertia of a culture that was fomented by Pete Briscoe, which was a culture of goodness, a culture of grace and its still carrying forward under that momentum. Frankly I find church to be excruciatingly lonely. It started as a simple tape duplication ministry in a home basement, using a reel-to-reel tape recorder linked to a dozen smaller recorders to duplicate the Briscoes' teaching. They made a lot of friends a lot of money over the years selling books, promoting programs, platforming them at conferences, platforming them at the Global Leadership Summit. It involves a level of compartmentalization that is truly stunning. Id like to share a few things as we navigate this loss together. I think one of the ways that Willow tried to reckon with the situation was to permit Bill Hybels to retire from his role at the church. As a lawyer whos represented some of Bill Hybels victims Mitch Little has seen a side of Willow Creek that few others have. Ive asked that question many times. Thank you so much. When you have a woman who says I was molested by a staff member, or you have a staff member who says, Bill Hybels just threw a punch at me, or dog cuts me up and down the hallway, those arent matters of policy, Julie. I dont agree with a lot of his views, but he said something and it is true, we need to have, you know, church leader needs to have two voices, one for gathering the sheep and one for scaring away wolves. And you made the statement that if you have the character to lead, you dont need a manual. Like so many of you, I love Pete. Pete is the son of Jill and Stuart Briscoe. I mean, there were some things that you learned specifically, that were done to potentially cover wrongdoing by Bill Hybels. Its the biblical admonition, you know, to hold a knife to your throat lest you desire the Kings delicacies. And Im like, Ive never seen a spiritual leader ever, ever have that sort of self disclosure in front of the church before he preaches. And I thought, I think I knew what he was doing when he named it that, but heres why I think its so ironic. With that purpose in mind, they launched theTelling the Truth ministry. "For many of you, he was preacher, pastor, mentor or friend. Well Mitch, one of the things Ive never discussed is that we used to attend Willow Creek. And so I thought it was so funny that James MacDonald had his house in the name of an entity called Vanilla Bean LLC. But youre right. Nobody who is an elder at a church should have any aspect of their identity wrapped up in either the role of being an elder or in the success or failure of the organization. If you go back through Willow Creeks archives, you can see all the, you know, the authors of books who came in and were platformed at Willow Creek. Hes like, I wasnt trying to protect the man, who by chance was his brother in law. And I do think theres a spiritual stronghold, I hope and pray that it will be broken in our area. Hybels at one point had a major conflict with a woman who was serving on the elder board, who was trying to hold him accountable and essentially used a reconciliation process involving some other big names in evangelicalism to essentially run her off, put her under an NDA. By the way, the best thing that was said in the recording is that if character isnt there, none of the regulations will matter, and if character is there, one doesnt need the regulations. So you can go to Amazon and enter in Boz Tchividjian and his book will pop up but you need to know what youre looking for because people who are sexual predators, they have an acuity for blending into society in ways that they dont stand out like this is not like, you know, the sexual predator in your church is not some, you know, grease ball sitting outside your kids ministry just kind of looking for a way to get at, like, thats our common image of what a sexual predator is. I appreciate your feedback. Can you imagine how many books that sold her? Stuart Briscoe died on August 3 "of natural causes unexpectedly" according to a tweet from his son, Pete Briscoe. He has been married to Jill for more than 59 years and has three children and 13 grandchildren. And that was how Bill deformed his accountability structure. Heres my belief, Julie, I think the church at large, the big leaders in evangelicalism, we can name names if we want to, and Im sure that people have names on their mind when theyre hearing this, Why were they silent? It is a collection of people. So I want you to think about this while you know Bill Hybels is being accused of doing awful things by a dozen women. Yes, I have be disillusioned many times by churches and some leaders. They show up, they sell books. But the thing that was so shocking to me, is that Bill Hy Hybels was the first pastor I had ever seen be so vulnerable from the pulpit. John and Nancy Ortberg had been at Willow Creek as pastors. I want to thank Pete too for advocating for women participating fully in leadership and for Libby modeling what it means to be a true helper (ezer kenegdo). About Stuart and Jill Briscoe Why did so many look the other way for so long? Guest Bios Show Transcript Many times, those who have experienced spiritual abuse are retraumatized when they try to speak about whats happened. And Harvest was the same thing. Its about serving God. The cover up of his behavior manifested at the elder board level. I was blown away. But essentially, it was the board being asked to deal with matters of policy and then all matters of implementation really get left to the vocational staff in the church. We see this is the third article this month youve found worth reading. Churches sometimes need advocates outside their system. This is simply a place where I share the message of Gods unadulterated grace through my preaching sermons and bible teaching. And its pervasive, and people are, theyre using it. With distinctly different teaching styles, you'll be moved by the emotional appeal of Jill and the compelling logic of Stuart, as they boldly proclaim God's sovereignty, grace, and love. And some of it also involved a culture that was willing to cover for wrongdoing. I havent seen a lot of true owning, true repenting, true confessing. And so I do think its a healthy thing when youre afraid of doing wrong, because it will be brought up and you will be held accountable. The other woman that Mitch represented will remain confidential but both these cases enabled Mitch to peek behind the curtain at Willow Creek and view upclose some of the dysfunctions that led to that scandal. But now my faith in the whole institution is shattered. Its scripturally rooted. Julie, thats whats so interesting about this story to me as I got deeper into it, I started to understand That, you know, when you go to the movies, and you see a story, you expect, okay, that guys the villain. And I have other thoughts about that and how that all worked out. So he said something about so and sos clothing. Absolutely. We needed to go to the hills and fight as guerillas, you know, what is guerrilla warfare? Multiple services, being able to do it on cue, proves Hybels theatrical abilitiesI look back and feel sick, given all the details we now know from behind the scenes. Friends are important! I was the senior pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship for nearly 30 years. Amen. Julie, you may want to review this pointwasnt a problem? Today were talking with Pete Briscoe, who served as the senior pastor for nearly three decades at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, Texas, and now consults with and coaches pastors. Im Julie Roys. I cant do this authentically anymore. And as hard as the last year and a half has been, I applaud him for that. Theyve got a little bit of the guide part. You have to have a strong culture of accountability. Because they, I mean, they had a massive PR machine they had, they hired Mark DeMoss, his firm to come in and try to resolve things from a PR standpoint. And what lessons can we learn from Willow Creeks mistakes? And this is a huge problem in the Evangelical Church in the southern baptist church, I mean, just absolutely massive problem where so often the predators covered up instead of brought to justice. And Hybels said, essentially, Yeah, well, well do it that way. And Clinton showed up and then didnt comply with anything that the board had said. And thats not what this is about. Hes just an affectionate kind of guy. It was stunning to me. Youre its just not its not a matter of if its a matter of when. Fifteen years later, I joined staff at Bent Tree. There were some areas or some some critical times when things could have gone differently, but the elders caved in essence to Bill Hybels. He even cites a conversation with Darrell Bock, a member who disagrees with the elders but who also says it is not an issue worth dividing over. It manifested at the Human Resources level. They wont produce any vanilla beans. Whats our theology? And something else that you mentioned about the board, which I found fascinating was that the Willow Creek board had an awful lot of lawyers on it. And its designed to be acretive, right that they gain strength over time. Bent Tree family and friends of Bent Tree, we invite you to post here (or on social media) your comments of encouragement, gratitude, blessing, remembrance, and tribute to the many long years our brother Pete and sister Libby have poured out their lives for the building up of Christs church. I wonder, I wonder what effect that might have had on them. Julie, it is great to be with you again. This is simply a place where I share the message of Gods unadulterated grace through my preaching sermons and bible teaching. 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