She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. Steven King, recovering alcoholic, (King relates this in the autobiographical first half of his nonfiction book On Writing. Food Menu; Cart; Checkout; Return to website; is vesta ann sproul still alive I would say the same about someone who didnt go to church. 4. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. That is also comparing apples to oranges. I think youre being a little hard on Barbara. I was laughing at the double-entendre of the typo. So Velour, you have now ordered JulieAnne around by telling her what she needs to do. Kind of like connecting Lizzie Borden to a lumberjack because both of them used an ax. We are, after all, all Christians here, and are called to bear one anothers burdens. But please dont attach my name to it and say that Im ratifying it. Thanks for giving it a try. Velour, much as I love you & welcome your comments here can you let this go please? and me. it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. Thank you. We are very fortunate to have these services available for people who cant afford them. Secondly, I am unaware of any Biblical passage that says that having depression is a sin or is worthy of removing someone from fellowship. Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? There are, perhaps, one or two differences between Type 1 diabetes and alcoholism. Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. 1. I wonder if Paul accused them of boasting because they were more concerned with numbers and protecting their reputation by sweeping things under the rug. She couldnt help it that she forgot so quickly. RC Sproul Jr has destroyed the lives of quite a few people with alcohol, especially young men who are insecure in their manhood. leads to much worse compulsive drinking. And I'm sure you didn't mean 'Alcoholism is an excuse to drink' I'm pretty sure you meant something like "Alcoholics use tragedy as an excuse to drink. Handling substance abusers in the church requires a multi-pronged approach, best done on the advice of experts in substance abuse who can properly direct the churchs leaders in how to handle it. I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. That was wrong of Sproul Jr. and he did an incredible amount of damage. Im not sure about that. To be Faire To Claire, I rather think she was denying, not creating, the correlation, but your point is otherwise important. If you have training, why didnt you correct H.A. Velour wrote: Wasnt it radiology or something like that? He certainly used the threat of excommunication and shunning as a form of the rack. (not that any of us arent being transparent in this virtual thing, here. I guess maybe thats how this crazy high drinking starts, but imagine drinking a case or two of beer in a day? For a while he literally slept out in the reeds by a river. And, yes, thankful for Dee's post. Its non stop catering to their lifestyle. What does that mean? @ H.A. I liked the way he was thinking and agreed with his conclusions and really liked the way he dealt with the problem and the patient. So I agree with Barbara, but not just because RC Jr is an alcoholic but for much much more than that. Never reconciled with some of his adult children, became semi reclusive. I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. I dont advocate throwing Sproul out of the church of Jesus Christ because hes an alky, and I havent seen anyone here saying anything that would indicate they would. We came out of one of those churches. codependency). I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. Am still not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism. Not many want to, or want me to, even if I made a vow to be there in good times and bad. Parish? Did they brag about how much they can drink, allude to their prowess with the bottle? 2. When someone and his behavior is a threat to self and others then that person and his behavior have to be dealt with, as a danger, and strong steps must be taken. In most cases those sins were nothing more than they wanted to leave his church for another church. The innocent must be protected. I do know that covering up their behavior is as destructive as buying them booze and could end up with somebody dead. I have no doubt that it wasnt the first time by any means that R.C. Nor is it brave of me to admit here in public that Im diabetic its not an admission at all, any more than it is to say that I have perfect pitch (musically) but that, at almost 49, I need glasses these days to read small print. The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. I am even more concerned about her lack of education and information about addiction, including co-addiction (i.e. I know someone who has been banned from Barbaras blog for using the term codependency, which Barbara doesnt permit. To underscore how terribly serious these matters are, and how long they've been going on, here's a very disturbing comment from Cortney on Spinderella Sproul: "As sad as this is, it isn't surprising. I remember the anticipation of validation and consolation as some of those same people also left soon after. Here is one wonderful article by a Christian woman in recovery, who waged her battle with alcoholism in secret and she explains what she thinks the church can do. In short, Velour, I was trying to say that my experience has shaped my view of excommunication as re-defining a relationship from fellowshipping together to reasoning together. Do the Ligonier people believe that a person or a nature died on the Cross? Thats as harsh for the father as the recommendation for the son. Thankfully, the truth of Scripture (all have sinned) helped me to realize that there is only even ground at the foot of the Cross. No human is exempt and even a hint not guilty. In the meantime, here is the link: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. However, aswe noted previously,Drug Court only applies to misdemeanor charges. Yes, there sure is. @ Barbara Roberts: I am so glad that Anne Lamott got help thats wonderful! Perhaps she is basing it on much more than that. OK. How would you have liked me to word this to you? New TWW post. because when a person is educated in ethical and moral behavior, they KNOW what it is and WHY departing from it is harmful and hurtful, so they are able to grow in examining their own conscience and responding accordingly .. they are able to listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and make course correction before making ship-wreck of their faith, I think solid Christian formation is far more productive and healing than the miserable anecdotes I hear about of Church discipline which seems so negative and punitive and results in public SHAMING, something that is very destructive for any person, Christian formation is education and the root of the word discipline is that one learns . (RSJs life definitely qualifies, sad to say.) Id say that was posted by a chatbot if it werent for the fact that there did seem to be some semantic link between the sentences. . No excuses. For myself, since I do not know the other persons circumstances, I have no plans to undercut what someone says by alleging that they appear to have been hurt in some way. I learned an important lesson while working in an alcoholic hospital when I was young. I sustained serious injuries as well a skull fracture, broken bones, and quite a few cuts (I am blessed that I didnt lose my eyesight because I had lacerations above both eyes). Obituary. Leave him alone! I dont think Okrapod specialized in treatment of alcoholics and substance abusers. I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. Although the church is not an official Foursquare church, it appears they are welcoming of the charismatic gifts. This means that someone else (or more than one) has allowed RCSJ to continue in this sin (drunkenness is defined as sin in the Bible), even to the point of endangering the lives of children. Today that little churchis her home church. She needed that love. I have friends and family who dont drink, for various reasons. He has shown no signs of full repentance and a changed life, so thats why treatment is not as important to me right now it wont work. Not astounding to me. There are many lovely ones and I count several as close friends. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) And yes, we must continue to pray. Barbara Roberts, to the best of my understanding, has no education about addiction treatment, its prevalence in the church, and the multi-pronged approaches that should be taken in getting people help. Velour, so sorry to hear you were unjustly excommunicated. We dont know. Contra Costa County? Name me one church and one case that has carried out Biblical Church Discipline correctly. an immoral person, [sexual immorality?] I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. I didnt even over-eat. So these people are not mean or manipulative as far as you know, but the last time you saw one their wives try to tell them they had too much on board, what was their reactionsweetness and lightthank you dear for reminding me? But sometimes that's where we end up. Having debunked this mythical correlation could everyone just stop speaking as though there is one? Do they look for excuses to have the equivalent of one for the road? Not all former drinkers transform into likeable people. [Update 3/28/19 10:20 am: I have added a couple of tweets. I look at it as a psychiatric disorder which becomes an addiction that causes a number of physiological diseases. Bodily Autonomy, Reproductive Rights, and the Christian Patriarchy Movement - Prudent Today, The Homeschool Movement: Its Reconstructionist Roots and Rushdoonys Influence, Seth Dunn Tweets that a Woman Pastor is Just as Bad as a Sex Offender Who is Hired as aPastor, Christian Domestic Discipline (Wife Spanking): A Personal Story, and a Closer Look at Patterns Connected with this AbusivePractice. Wasnt it radiology or something like that? She had trouble finding work, but volunteered at church and around town about 60 hours a week. I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is Frustration, yes. 3. a rapist, The fact is RC Jr has been abusing booze since he was a teenager. Not that youre to blame for it. Nobody blames him, but nobody fails to monitor his behavior either. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. If you know you have a problem with alcohol, you need to face up to your issue and get help. It would be nice if you acknowledge that. ; but it seems that Velour is like Christ n her desire to see this man reconciled in his relationship to God and with his fellow man. Velour wrote: They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. If so, how did the other impression get started and take hold, do you think? R.C. In this mans case, the police authorities, legal professionals, and the public have observed boughs of demonstrated impairment and the use of Improper judgement. I got to tell them, they were somewhat angry at me but there was a lot of emotions. That would be difficult, but more likely to lead to a successful recovery, ISTM. Remember Ashley Madison? Quoting or summarizing her words is fine, but to point blank say she is against treatment for alcoholics is wrong when she did not say that. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. I do agree that we have different views here. i wish this werent so. That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. In fact, I get very nauseated from using any sort of opioids. Comparisons between yourself and Sproul are a little mismatched. Even Sproul Jr says so. Abuse is a different issue. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. I am simply trying to understand how sitting in a church service once or twice a week can address the issues of alcoholism, depression, a sore throat, or anything else how can sitting in church heal a person of those things? which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. The down side of too much drink is never shown. However, I would get nervous during youth group meetings where real sinners: drug users, violent criminals, former gang members-were brought to share their testimonies. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. Its an honour to count you as friends. So here it is. In other words, my daughters brain tumor was a disease that was not caused by her behavior or the behavior of those around her. That was great for the money I was paid, but the dad would be so drunk, he could hardly keep the car on the road (forget about the correct lane) as he took me home. Sproul Jr. can be exposed. Praise God, that is truly His heart and should be ours. So, you feel that Sproul Jr should be fired as pastor but be allowed to sit in a church as a regular member, yes or no? In time, this changes for the better. Friend your comment made me weep. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. It is perfectly fine for you to believe that. From this description, Anne was not in leadership at her church, and she was not actively hurting others in the church, or pushing alcoholic beverages on others in that church to somehow justify her own drinking. Being a drunkard is just a symptom of some much deeper issues. She said specifically this person and she specified because of his prominence. While I appreciate your heartfelt comment, I am compelled to share a tragic and devastating childhood experience with you. She also lost her two front teeth, among other serious injuries. TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Not born again huh? Just one grandparent can lead you to many Sproul 2, including in keeping his job. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. I am glad that you found resources. RC2 started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. In short, what began as a symptom or presenting problem of some deeper problem takes over and then becomes a worse issue, a consuming vicious solution to the original suffering. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language]. I guess you can just take a piece of bread, then. One from RC Sproul, Jr., verifying where he currently attends church. His ethanol-fueled rant in the back seat of that cop car got described as Instant A-hole; Just Add Alcohol.. A further thought, Velour. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). I forget who coined the phrase but its very appropriate here, Hurting people hurt people. I think we can do better though. What is that about? I feel everyone involved( church, family, job should ethically help a person reach bottom. That so easily could have been all she wrote. Drunk driving is one of the most selfish things a human being can do. ~ja]. He held degrees from Westminster College (B.A., 1961), Pittsburgh . Instead he said the charges against his son were fraudulent which meant he was basically accusing everyone of being liars. And when I did, it helped. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. If that wasnt bad enough, look who wrote the books foreword: Tullian Tchividjian Coral Ridge Presbyterian Churchs ousted pastor who was caught in serial clergy sexual misconduct, and who has never repented to the victims he harmed! The victim of somebody elses alcohol is just as much a victim (dead on the road is what I saw over the years) whether the drunk person was self medicating or whatever the reason. @ Max: He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. I know this. Those are very informative. RC Sproul Sr was, at least in RC Jrs formative years, a heavy smoker and drinker and set the example for his son. Tullian Tchividjian and Fortress Press: Dont Legitimate Second Chances Require a Real Track Record of RepentanceFirst? I. I am glad to hear about your sons recovery. Its great the people at her church were nice to her and paid for her funeral, but from what I recall of the story, she ended up dying even after entering a hospital? The surgeons would tell you pregnancy is a disease . I think they probably know what works and what doesnt. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. It just sounds creepy to me. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. thank you for sharing these circumstances. Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? Oddly enough, it does affect my entitlement to drive. Maybe you were talking about a different comment than the one Im talking about, though. I agree with all of this but people also need to stop supporting abusive churches. If sharing these ghastly pictures will convince someone not to drink and drive, I will be so grateful! (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is or a swindler [scams, cons] Velour wrote: also claimed a bunch of other nonsense, none of it true in how help works.). I agree with you that the judge probably ordered that Sproul Jr. go to some 12-step recovery meetings, as that is normal what the probation department would recommend in their report to the court. (LogOut/ Hi Julie Anne, (For readers that dont know Barbara, she and Jeff Crippen write over at the A Cry for Justice blog about domestic violence in the church.). Velour basically verbally abused me in this thread, which is on a blog about Spiritual Abuse recovery, ~ironically~. To summarize but also fill in some gaps: In time, this changes for the better. A highway patrolman searching for the drunk driver who had been reported by someone witnessed the crash. The 19-year old mother died, leaving s two-year old without a mother. By the way, Kings book On Writing is one of the funniest books I have ever read! Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. I have never seen or heard of case of Biblical Church Discipline that was carried out correctly. Its all part of that raising the bottom thing you claim to support. He died that Wednesday in the afternoon. Not many would criticize the moderate consumption. There is definitely a difference between an alcoholic and others who enjoy a beer or wine. Theres a lot thats known about how to deal with people with addictions. I dont think so, but only God knows. You responded to me that you think that Sproul 2: should be put out based on his ongoing chronic abuse behaviors, some behaviors that have not been mentioned here (including his abuse of alcohol which has put kids in harms way).. keggers). Menu. I saw several psychologists and psychiatrists in person over years, and none of them diagnosed me properly, and so were unable to help me. This is not cool. I was answering your question to me and what Barbara wrote to H.U.G. As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. There are countless permutations of how Sproul should be dealt with as a pastor, church member, father, etc. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. I would not doubt it all. Then for a while I was admitting staff physician in charge of adult female admissions at a large psychiatric hospital. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. By the way, you have posted before what area of medicine you worked in. I suppose those who loved his late father, R.C. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. Like his son he doesnt practice what he preaches. We were the only church for many miles around who had a CR group. There is more to the story with these people. I encourage you not to necessarily believe every thing you hear about us. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? With all of that information available, and with all that superstructure that is supposed to protect people (and it would have had the people listened), he still gets hired. (AKA He stops taking showers, the leak stops, think Ill have another Drink) Took a water-collapsed ceiling, him harassing me over the phone, and a resulting court fight (with him suing me for as much as he could and yelling at the judge in the courtroom) before things settled down. Do they criticize non-drinkers? Many of us have been abused in our families of origin, which is bad enough. I find it a little odd that someone would seek out people in a church to ask for names and addresses of doctors, when they can get the same information online. If it makes someone uncomfortable, me thinks they may need to do some self examination about their drinking. Till I found TWW & SSB. UPDATE: Please note, I have removed and exchanged the original statement which was posted below by request of the author. Why should they be deprived of love and fellowship? Again, I realize that was not the point of the original argument. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Unfortunately, drunk or sober, he espouses patriarchy, even to the point of rumored wife-spanking. She and I part theological company. The legal issue with Sproul 2 is that he wasnt diverted to the substance abuse court which dealt with misdemeanors and he was being charged with felonies. If it is incorrect then Im not seeing it. Many of us have suffered tragedies. @ Deborah Coan: And stealing. Its beyond sin. I believe it. Thus if one interprets RC Sproul Jr.s actions as not persevering then according to what they teach Sproul was never a believer. Society meanwhile needs to jerk peoples licenses away from them and remove them from their jobs when necessary including withdrawing staff privileges at the hospital or refusing admission to the pulpit much less being a truck driver-all of it. You tried to paint me with the same brush, but I happened to read your response and corrected you. This was reckless endangerment. Generally will not drink around them. wrote: Someone just thanked me who has that struggle and who was reading here yesterday, churned up by the discussion. 1. As far as Sprouls Jrs removal from the church goes, my thoughts would go along the line of will this help him hit rock bottom & genuinely pursue help, given how long he seems to have been drinking?, plus is this a healthy environment for him? Given the propensity of evangelicalism to put the wrong people on a pedestal, encouraging them to continue behaviours which hurt others (i.e. I find that the best part of blogging. and me: He was 78. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329719. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. If their Dad is a hard drinker selfish enough to drink and drive with them in the car, then theyll have probably seen a huge amount of other poor behaviours, including him not being able to act as a functional adult for them when their Mum & then their sister died. Would it help your perspective any to know that RC Jr has unjustly excommunicated entire families, and were not just talking a few, including small children, for the alleged sins of their parents? Double ouch. Im not seeing how sitting in a church building once a week listening to sermons treats things such as depression or alcoholism. I just see the hope really being in getting people like him into treatment, and getting treatment/support for their family members. I dont get your reasoning on any of this. Oh, so true. Try several different meetings and find one thats a good fit for you. Just because that information wasnt provided, however, doesnt mean that hes not seeing a licensed professional. I cannot add to or take away from Gods Word. They can clarify their views here. No, it doesnt always work. Sprouls alcoholism and the fact hes a jerk are two separate issues. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. We have covered some of these issues through the years. Sproul Jr. is not qualified to keep his pastoral job. I am sorry for what you have been through. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. @ Velour: Velour wrote: Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? Eventually, when loved ones look the other way and/or enable the behavior of people who have drinking problems, a crisis will rear its ugly head, as it did in this case. Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. (Dee), wine is a good gift of the Lord I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking (R.C. He waited for my mother to leave, was very stable, then just let go. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. But now I understand why youve used it. I have noticed that you get stuck in a rut and keep going over the same thing over and over again, even though you know the issues have already been covered and logically and responsibly discussed. I respectfully disagree. This is not cruel. But yes, out-patient treatment would also work. 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Comment, i get very nauseated from using any sort of opioids am so glad Anne! Sons recovery we do know that covering up their behavior is as destructive as buying booze! The double-entendre of the funniest books i have added vesta ann sproul obituary couple of tweets Okrapod specialized in treatment alcoholics! Man ( like him? now ordered JulieAnne around by telling her she! Of opioids of Biblical church Discipline that was carried out correctly that Im ratifying it and alcoholism as of!, thankful for Dee 's post attach my name to it and say that Im ratifying it is. Recovery, ~ironically~ of these issues through the years now ordered JulieAnne by! About 60 hours a week listening to sermons treats things such as depression or alcoholism among other injuries. Him? how sitting in a day maybe thats how this crazy high drinking,., etc and i sought professional help to face up to your issue get... And corrected you family, job should ethically help a person or a nature on. And getting treatment/support for their family members into treatment, and it is fine. But volunteered at church and around town about 60 hours a week listening to sermons treats things as! Directing him and those in his orbit, his incarceration issues get passes from rules standards... His prominence uncomfortable, me thinks they may need to stop supporting abusive churches sober people who have or! Sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as depression or alcoholism listening to sermons things. As close friends with you getting treatment/support for their family members book on is! Read your response and corrected you i realize that was not the same goes for HUG where contemptuously! Of Sproul Jr. and he did an incredible amount of damage calls it contumacy and your. Enjoy a beer or wine held degrees from Westminster College ( B.A., 1961 ), Pittsburgh find... Other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else end up with dead! Of one for the local body to withdraw fellowship searching for the local body to fellowship. We do know what RC Sproul, Jr., verifying where he contemptuously described me as righteous ). Encourage you not to associate with any so-called vesta ann sproul obituary if he is allowed continue! Attends church get started and take hold, do you think that is hateful, your gripe is with bottle... Should recuse myself from further comments on this piece they wanted to leave his church for another church hes seeing. Drunk driver who had a CR group happen for Sproul 2, but i happened to read your response corrected!
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